Is It Because I’m Black?

Richard Dodds  0:00  
later in the episode,

Mrs. Shelton  0:01  
And I thought for sure that there would be a lot of discussions just because the kids would be ready to talk about it. But the only thing that I heard was just how much they had over there. And the other school, you know, it does that and this and that, and that. I said, Well, we may not have a cafeteria like that we may not have a big building, but we know what we do have, we have each other and we have a very large family of loving people here. And you know what else? You’re very, very smart children. It takes a lot of work to be smart.

Richard Dodds  0:33  
This is still talking, a show about giving perspectives to issues that minorities face every day. I’m your host, Richard Dodds. On this episode, we’re gonna be talking about where the name still talking, like came from how the podcast originated. And we’re also going to be talking about an exchange program that I was a part of in middle school that gave me a new perspective on suburban schools versus inner-city schools. The name of the show, still talking black came from a combination of a couple of things. One, whenever there’s a tragedy, everybody becomes social media activists, timelines change, and we’re all fighting for rights. But far too often after that tragedy has dissipated, our timelines returned to normal. Still talking black was made to be a platform where we consistently talk about black things and have discussions from a black perspective, whether there’s a tragedy going on or not, we’re going to consistently talk about blackness, and all of the different perspectives that affect our community and the community as a whole. Because we’re all a part of this world. The second part of the name, it’s kind of like a play on still talking back, because a lot of times talking, but it almost seems like a bad word. So we’re gonna take that, and we’re gonna play off of that off, we’re still talking back, and we’re gonna still talk black. So we’re going to consistently be talking about black things. I remember hearing a quote from Jay Z, and it says, quote, being black in America is like being born with the presumption of guilt, and quote, a lot of times, it’s how it feels being black in America. So as far too often that our side is not given a chance to represent yourself properly. We are so many different things. And too many times people see us as just one thing. None of now that I’ve told you a little bit about where the name came from, the podcast actually came to be on a very specific day, everything changed for me, when George Flo was murdered, may 25 2020, it was time for me to really sit back and reflect on the state of our country, and made me take a harder look at my life, and figure out some of the ways that I could help spark change. At the time, I was already working on a different podcast, and I saw the difference that one voice can make. So after Jewish boys murder, I put together a speech but I’m gonna actually I’m gonna read it to you right now. My parents raised me not to see color, but instead to see an individual. Even with that, my mother sat me down one day and explained to me the harsh reality of this world. There are people in this world that won’t like you, because of the color of your skin. I still remember the pain I felt from her words, while wiping tears from my eyes, asking her why being black in America is exhausting. Knowing that no matter what you do, or how you carry yourself, no matter how educated you are, how much money you make, how successful you are, or how much good you done, there are always people that are going to see you as less than being black in America, I have to worry about things that other people don’t. If I wear my hair natural, are people going to treat me differently? Is my job going to accept it? If I get pulled over? I’m not going to get shot beat? Is it because I’m black? If someone is rude, argue for service, or they’re having a bad day? Or is it because I’m black? To have to ask yourself that question after any and everything. Knowing that race can always be an issue is incredibly taxing going your mind. And a lot of ways I feel like America has made black a bad word. Our race was so and treated like animals. empires were built off the labor of our lineage. We started at a disadvantage. To paraphrase Dr. Martin Luther King, how can you tell a bootless man to pull himself up by his bootstraps? And even when you make it, people still treat you like your last name. As a person, there is so much going on a day. As a black man, I’m exhausted. When will I be able to stop asking a question to myself? Is it because I’m black.

Richard Dodds  4:25  
So that’s the end of my speech. But to give a little bit more context and clarity on it, because I’m black. There used to be something I used to say as a joke when I hung around my friends that weren’t black. Whenever something would happen. I was like, Oh, is it because I’m black. And it used to be funny. And like now is not funny at all. It’s something that I used to didn’t have to worry about. But now is something that’s constantly on my mind with the recent things that have been going on. haven’t grown up around so many different types of people, different races, different religions. I have a belief and maybe it’s just I hope, but I don’t think people are inherently racist. But I think a lot of times people don’t understand the perspectives that others have. Many, a lot of times we compare other situations based on opportunities we’ve had, which works in groups of similar backgrounds, even if it’s diff different ethnicities. But when applied to other groups, it can completely distort reality. My first taste of having a different perspective came in middle school. I grew up in Detroit, Michigan, and I went to school, a middle school in Detroit as well. And I can remember we did a, an exchange program where we had kids from a different school, come and visit our school, not my schools, and it was in Detroit, so it was primarily black. And the kids who come to visit, were not black. So we were all assigned a kid from the school or the people who was on this program, were assigned a kid from the school. And I remember showing my personnel around our school. And you know, I was pretty proud of my school, I had no idea that my school was so different from their school. So the next week came around, and we reversed the program. So instead of us hosting them, they hosted us. I don’t remember exactly what school was, but I know it was in the suburbs. And it was way different from Detroit. I remember pulling up to the school, thinking like we’re pulling up to a mall, because it was so incredibly big. And I was like, what does this is the school I just remember thinking like, That’s crazy. This is the school, their cafeteria was so big it has so they had so many different food choices. That wasn’t what’s on the menu. Today, it was just different menus all over the place, and you can go wherever you want to go. And going into the music room, that music room was as big as our gym. It was as big as one of our gyms, they had every kind of instrument you could ever think of in there. And I had never seen so many instruments in one room, I think the thing I really put over the top of me and it might not seem like a big deal to the people that’s listening because things have changed so much since I was a child. But I remember going to their home rooms, and every room in the school had his own television, a VCR that lets you know how long ago was bad the own television, a VCR. And for us, like my school, we had like maybe two VCRs and televisions that we wrote around each room. I just remember being back on that bus, I had it back to my school, the school that I was so happy with that I love so much. It just didn’t seem like enough anymore. Because kids my age are going to the school and I had so much more opportunity and so many more resources than I did. I just didn’t even understand how it worked. It was amazing how different things were between the two schools. And I it was it was really something that was maybe a little bit discouraging at the time, because it was just hard for my mind my young mind to comprehend the differences and how that those differences could come about how could those differences exist? We’re all kids, you know. And for them, that was their starting point. And for me, my starting point was way different. And maybe the reason for the exchange program was to show both was that people are starting out in different places, and to give both of us different perspectives on students our age, I don’t know what impact that had on the kids that came to visit us. But that’s one of those things that leaves a lasting imprint on my mind is just going to that exchange program in middle school and seeing how different it was, I remember talking to someone I lived in a city and a they were attending private school and their parents was faced with a decision of whether or not they wanted to move out of the city. And they took into consideration the cost of private school and the amount that they’re paying for the house now. And they went and got a house and use the money that they were using for the private school to pay for the new house. And it allowed them to go to a different school district that had opportunities that they were getting at the private school, but it was included in our taxes there. It’s just crazy how differently things are from section to section, how somebody start is so different from somebody else’s start. And a lot of people I don’t think enough people sit down and really consider that, where you’re starting at where your zero is, that might be somebody else’s 10. So these are the kinds of things that I really want to talk about. Almost still talking black, that is exactly why I’m here just to make sure that we can get some different perspectives and we can grow. Because I feel like when you have different perspectives, and you have to really ponder and think about things that you usually don’t have to ponder and think about. I think that’s where the growth happens. But I would love to give a disclaimer saying that I am not a representative for all black people. But I have a unique perspective of view and the only views that are represented as the views of my own. Now of course there’s going to be other people that feel like feel like me black and otherwise, but I’m in no way shape or form a representative of all black people. Just me and just the sheer

Richard Dodds  10:04  
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Richard Dodds  10:30  
I tend to in ludington Magnum Middle School. That’s where the exchange program took place. I was lucky enough to be able to reach out to Mrs. Shelton,

Mrs. Shelton  10:38  
I am a retired educator, I was a principal and an assistant principal at a middle school in Detroit. I worked for Detroit Public Schools for 40 years. And I retired in 2008. I guess you could say, in my role as the assistant principal, that I had the connection with Richard,

Richard Dodds  11:00  
do you remember what the initial goal for the program was?

Mrs. Shelton  11:06  
The initial goal is it was said to me is that the children need to be exposed. This was the counselor, she said, I’d like to do this student exchange program. And I said, Okay, and she says with suburban schools, because I thought she meant right there in the city to go to some of our city schools, because that’s what I would have done. Yeah. And so I said, Okay, I said, so what are you expecting? When you go there? She said, Well, I want them to see, you know, how these schools have all of this, you know, that we don’t have but yet, and this was her main thrust, but yet we have the ability to work with what we have, and still measure up to them. I said, Okay, I could see a counselor coming from that, that standpoint. So that was her thing. Okay, be you know, shock and awe and all of that, would you see what all they have. But then just remember, we might not have this, but we have the same abilities to move justice far as these children will be moving with less, but yet maybe even smarter, and even more efficiently. So that was her motivation.

Unknown Speaker  12:24  
So Mrs. Shelton, When you heard my perspective and recollection of the middle school? exchange?

Mrs. Shelton  12:31  
I was shocked to tell you the truth, because I did not expect you to say any of what you said. I had never thought about the exchange of the two schools being How can I say it, that when our children came back from those schools, that there would be children from my building that came back really depressed about the differences between the two schools? And I know that when you go into the suburbs, I mean, they have everything, okay, the schools look like college campuses, even middle schools, even the elementary ones. And yes, they have all of the technology and their space and small classes, class size, basically. And then you go into the cafeteria, and and it’s like an oasis. What it’s like going into a restaurant. And you’re looking at all of this stuff. And you’re thinking wow, you know, so when you said that, hey, you were really a little bit kind of feeling down when you came back from that visit. And you came back to our school which you could have probably put our school into that school two or three times.

Richard Dodds  13:47  
Exactly. I think I think it was like just really discouraging. I’m an artist. So whenever I talk to like design students, I say, you don’t really know what’s good until you look at what else was good. Yeah, and if you only see, I mean, what they say comparison is the destroyer of peace, something to that nature. That’s true. So when you start when you look at what you have, and then you compare it to what somebody else has, it can be really discouraging I was like wow, like how do they have that and we don’t and I didn’t understand economics back then. I didn’t really get it I was just like, why can’t we have those same things?

Mrs. Shelton  14:25  
And you know, what that brought to my mind was why wasn’t that initiated by the counselors before you made that journey to that school? I think that more prep work, looking back now more prep work with the children with my children of the school as to what to expect when you go and why it is like that. And that this is an all that school is supposed to be about the not just the whistles and the bells. And yes, there is going to be a big discrepancy and this is why and explain it. had that happened, perhaps there would have been a better feel about coming back to a smaller school that didn’t have half of what these other schools had. And maybe a better understanding of why that was.

Richard Dodds  15:15  
Do you think what do you think the schools? What do you think the students from the other school took away from coming to visit our school because our school, we don’t have the bells and whistles, but I can’t say that I truly loved our school, I felt like it was so much deep education that I gained from being there in so many different exchanges with the different students with different backgrounds. It was it was a great time, honestly.

Mrs. Shelton  15:36  
And this was the surprise and I’m, and I talked to my son today. And he said, never mentioned that. I said, You were never told that when those kids came, and they were leaving, how astounded they were at how far ahead you were in the curriculums in math and English and science. Wow. They said there, you’re doing that, wow, we’re not there yet. Even the teachers were from those schools were very impressed. So hey, we may not have had that very expanded building with all the technology and whatever. But we had all those brains inside. I tell you and Harrell said that. He never felt discouraged about coming back to the school and not having the things he said he just made him mad because he didn’t know why. And that was his honest answer to me a few days ago, where we talked it over. He said, Yeah, I just tried to figure out how come in half hour that and we go. And I said, Wow, that was the preparation that needed to go into that trip, even as nice as that turned out to be and it was, you know, when our favorite that we were Dean, you know, so highly prepared. And our children were so smart. We were so far ahead of everything. But there needed to be more work done before that trip.

Richard Dodds  16:51  
So if you could change if you could change anything, you would just change, you say you would change the preparation?

Mrs. Shelton  16:57  
Oh, absolutely. Not only the preparation, but also what happens when you come back. Okay, what what were the discussions then then say he said he didn’t look believe that, that he couldn’t remember that there were any discussions? I couldn’t

Richard Dodds  17:13  
Me either. I don’t know what I mean, maybe, but it just didn’t stand out in my mind at all.

Mrs. Shelton  17:19  
Yeah. And see, that was the counselor was two counselors, I think that took that on, and a couple of teachers went with them. And I thought for sure that there would be a lot of discussion just because the kids would be ready to talk about it. But the only thing that I heard was just how much they had over there. And the other school, you know, that Oh, man, no shows usually the scene in their building was so big, and it gets that this and that, and that they’re thinking, Okay, and I’m smiling, I’m whatever. And I said, so what did you think? Yeah, wish we had a cafeteria like? I said, Well, we may not have a cafeteria like that, we may not have a big building, but we know what we do have, we have each other and we have a very large family of loving people here. And you know what else, you’re very, very smart children. And it takes a lot of work to be smart, you know that, and that you’re going to go as high and as far as you can go, and then you might be in a building like that, where you’re the principal? You know, so those would be my answers to the children that asked me but more work. If I hit you know, retrospect, I would say that more work should have been done with the preparation. And then with the evaluation,

Richard Dodds  18:35  
I think is two things with with that every everybody responds differently to different stimuli. So you know what motivates one person might discourage somebody else. And like having that conversation, I think that would have really been beneficial. And like, just to be fair, like, I don’t even remember if we had the conversation, but it’s so long ago. It’s crazy how vividly I remember going to that school. The thing that I will say about having less is that I feel like when you have less you tend to focus more on the things that are important. You don’t get caught up in inclusing glamour, a lot of times you just focus on those things that you can control. And one of the things that our teachers their control, is that actually caring for the students? Oh, yes. And doing the things that they could to make sure that we succeeded in our education.

Mrs. Shelton  19:23  
And that was for sure. And they had no choice because that was my mantra. You know, this is all about the show. is all about the children. When you step into this door in the morning, we are on go. And they actually did what I needed them to do. But they they followed my lead I worked with them. They didn’t just see me sitting in an office and you know, telling them what to do. I’m out on haul duty. I’m doing this I’m counseling kids in the middle of the hall. I’m taking children to my office, having lunch with them. You know, those are the kinds of things that make children feel good about where they are About the people that are teaching them, and administering to them, they feel loved and they feel wanted and it feels like a safe place. And that’s the environment, you’re supposed to have the children, if you’re supposed to be teaching them to learn about all kinds of things. And then Harold had another thought, too. He says, you know, it’s also, what might have been consideration is that some of the children that went maybe to the school and came back to a safe environment, which was ludington, but did not have that same kind of home environment. And I said, Wow, I had thought of that. He said, like, when we come home, you know, we’ve got you and dad there. And here, you are motivating us. And we’re in, we’re doing our homework, and we’re doing this and he said, Everybody wasn’t going home to a home where they had that kind of support, or that family structure. And he says, so that could have been very devastating even more, because they went to a great school, you know, out in the suburbs, and all of that, that came back to their school, which had been saved to them, but then they go home, then it’s totally different. And I said, Wow, I hadn’t thought about that family structure. And you are absolutely right. Yeah,

Richard Dodds  21:13  
I say all the time that no matter what was going on in the world, when I was a child, the one thing I was for sure, no matter if I was doing good on school, bad on school, whether the world was against me, I knew that once I got home now my parents one cared. And number two, that they loved me, no matter what. And that was a such a big part of me being able to mature and grow into the man that I am now.

Mrs. Shelton  21:38  
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, you and I had that discussion, that if it hadn’t been for your dad, and your mom, you know, just always they’re motivating you and guiding you in the right direction and letting you have your thoughts about things and explaining things to you just about life in general, those were very, very important structures that you need it.

Richard Dodds  22:00  
I definitely, I definitely think school is really important. And I don’t I definitely do not undervalue the importance of having good teachers in a good school. But I just really hope that we start to put more emphasis on home, because there’s lessons that you learn in the home that you can’t teach at school.

Mrs. Shelton  22:16  
That’s absolutely right. And that’s why so many children fall behind, even before they get to school, when you get children that come in and preschool, or even kindergarten, and they don’t know what their real name is. And you ask them what their name is. And they say things like boo boo or whatever. They don’t know their numbers from one to 10. They don’t know, alphabets. See, they’re already behind. And this is what you have to make up and say that should be taught at home, really, that in so many other things. So that lack of exposure is really putting them on a trajectory to always having to try to catch up. Yeah, it’s sad, really.

Richard Dodds  22:58  
So from your perspective, what what do you think were the pluses and minuses of the whole thing? I mean, is there anything out there aside from what we already talked about?

Mrs. Shelton  23:06  
Well, the pluses were definitely just let them see how the other half lives. You know, that’s nothing new in children’s lives. I mean, if they go anywhere, if they’re on vacation, or even if they go to certain parts of our city, cities and Michigan, you go out to Bloomfield and you come back home and you’re in Detroit, you see the differences. Okay, so, inequities were sort of, you know, children are surrounded by inequities all their life, but the thing is, how to get them to adapt to the inequities and to not let them hinder that let’s not let those inequities hinder their their mind and thinking about how they would progress even though they don’t have all of this. So that That, to me, seemed like a good goal. But yet, and going out, there may be some people weren’t mature enough to handle that, at that point in time. Also, the final analysis of it all, just getting them just had sitting down in a big room or in the auditorium and just talking to the kids. Okay, so let me get some ideas about what you thought. And so how did you feel about that? And I don’t think that ever happened.

Richard Dodds  24:15  
Yeah, it’s funny because you hear kids who grew up in poverty, and they say, a lot of times, depending on their family structure. They’d be like, Hey, I grew up poor, but I never knew I was poor. I never felt poor until I went here. And I saw that they had this and they had their own rooms, and they had their own beds, and they had bed frames. But aside before that, I never felt poor.

Mrs. Shelton  24:38  
Wow. Now that is really, an astounding that’s profound. That’s a profound statement. I have heard many people say that. I just said that about my growing up. We were we weren’t poor. And so you know, and I didn’t think that we were Even when I went to the elementary school that I went to, it was, you know, a Detroit Public School. So it was not really new or whatever. So this just kind of was all in line with the way I was living and, and the school had the same kind of children in it and what have you. And it was only when I got to high school, and I decided that I would not go to Central but that I would go to Mumford. That is when I had the Rude Awakening, Hmm, yeah. And so yeah, I was fine. I might have we might, there was plenty of love, wonderful family always had dinner together. Just your traditional family life, you would think you know, you have people that love you, you feel secure. You know, you love to come back home after school, when you’re in school, you’re with people that look like you that are on the same income level. So this is a great thing. And then you graduate from the eighth grade, and people are making decisions. And so I thought, maybe I’d like to try to go to a school that is an all black, maybe I want to try and go somewhere different. A lot of my friends went to Central, and I went to Mumford. And that was an education I will never forget.

Richard Dodds  26:18  
That’s it. That’s amazing to hear.

Mrs. Shelton  26:21  
And I’m so glad I did it. So glad I did it. It just opened my eyes to so many things. I never felt like I had had a terrible childhood. I just saw how other people live. I said, wow, you know, because those were Jewish kids. They were coming to school with convertibles and

Mrs. Shelton  26:45  
mothers and fathers, doctors, lawyers, judges, whatever. And do you know that there were only a handful of black kids there because when there was a Jewish holiday, it might be 10 of us in a class. Everybody was out. But they were wonderful. I met some of my best friends are are still in touch with me today from Mumford. So it was a great experience. But it just goes to show you how your decisions can make a difference. And your decisions can also make you aware of things that you never thought you would be aware of. And then I realized, oh wow, we were poor.

Unknown Speaker  27:24  
These never know.

Mrs. Shelton  27:27  
Yeah, never knew. And, and so Wow. But I had a good life. And because I was four but had a good life and felt nurtured and protected, and able to move up, you know, move forward. I was Hey, I was daunting. I felt I could do anything because my parents had told me that. Yeah, so there you go.

Richard Dodds  27:50  
There’s magic. And parents tell me you can do anything that you put your mind to at a young age because there were meaning so much, then when you’re

Mrs. Shelton  28:00  
that’s so true. Because who else are you gonna trust? Really, you know, these are the main people in your lives.

Richard Dodds  28:06  
From your perspective, looking back at the program now, do you feel like it was a success?

Mrs. Shelton  28:11  
I would say that it was in some measures, I wouldn’t say that it was a failure, I just think that it could have been a much better program, if work had gone in to it in the beginning and at the end to bring it all together. So I think that it was a great idea. I think the premise was sound, I just think that there was not enough work put in in the beginning to talk with the children and to prepare them. And then you always have to have a follow up. And once those children come back, especially when they come back, then you really want to talk with them to get their feelings about what happened and their perspective on it. And all of that that’s what does it give it an A, but I would say that it was a B, you know, if I had to grade it

Richard Dodds  29:00  
is it’s funny, because at that age, you don’t really realize what you have, it’s easier to see what you don’t have than to really realize what you have. Because as a child, what you have is just normal is not anything extra. You think that everything that you get everybody else gets and has. So when you see somebody else with something else, the assumption is is that they have everything that you have plus this other stuff. Yeah, not always realizing that sometimes they don’t have that stuff that you have, and you have something different than they have. And it’s not always one to one, but I feel like at that age is hard to tell.

Mrs. Shelton  29:35  
Well, that’s the point. That’s the point. That’s why the difference between my daughter going to a suburban high school when she is like a junior or senior at Renaissance is completely different from the experience of a middle school going to one of those schools because you don’t have that depth yet. Yeah. Yeah, see, so the perspective is totally different than that. based on experience, and you haven’t had those experiences, you don’t have the depth to be able to understand and get it all on wound. You know, what is it that I’m feeling? You know, why do I feel like this? And that’s why you needed help in getting all of that out.

Richard Dodds  30:20  
It still amazes me that memories so many years ago, so vivid in my head still,

Mrs. Shelton  30:25  
yeah, right? Well, that’s because it was very impactful to you. And that’s what amazed me about the entire conversation. Because first of all, I was shocked because I had never heard that from any of the students that ever went that came to me to say anything about the trip. And the fact that you still remembered it means that it had to have an emotional impact on you. so hard that you still remember it today. Yeah, yeah. you internalize that. for that. Yeah, you did that you internalize that. I’m glad that you really shared that because that never entered my mind. I never even thought about that. I can’t say it was an oversight. It just never occurred to me. And I guess that’s because I never heard anyone say anything like that. And the bad part about that is they could have been feeling just like you were feeling but they just didn’t vocalize it. Yeah.

Richard Dodds  31:20  
That’s why it’s always good to have those different perspectives. Yes, diversity is so important now because you can get so many different angles when it comes to stuff because what doesn’t offend, you may offend somebody else, and they might have a perspective that you didn’t think about that could make it better.

Mrs. Shelton  31:34  
Yeah, so true. Yeah. So very, very true. mosquitoes. I

Richard Dodds  31:38  
want to thank you for taking the time out of your day to talk to me, I really appreciate it.

Mrs. Shelton  31:42  
Oh, man, it was a it was really a pleasure. And thank you for the opportunity. I always love discussions like this. There’s so enlightening.

Richard Dodds  31:51  
So that’s all I have for you today. But before you go, I would like to put some spotlight on melanin spotlight on melanin is the part of the show where I like to spotlight a creator, influencer part his business owner or activist of color. This week. I would like to spotlight Vernon Thompson. Vernon Thompson is a high school assistant principal. They released a hip hop album called the Joe Clark tape sampling audio from the 1989 movie. Lean on me starring Morgan Freeman based on the life of the high school principal Joe Lewis Clark. The album touches on everything from teen pregnancy to violence in the inner city. The album is available on Amazon, Apple Music Spotify, title and YouTube. Be sure to give it a listen. We’ll provide links to the album in our show notes. You can find Verna Thompson on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. Vernon’s Thompson does v e r n o n s th o m MP so if you or someone you know what like a chance to be featured on spotlight on melanin, send us an email at spotlight at skill talking black calm, please include links to their social media and why you feel like they should be spotlighted. So again, thank you everyone for listening. Still talking black as a crown culture media production is produced by me. Richard Dodds music from the show was created by the DJ below. Please make sure to rate and subscribe to the show on your favorite podcasting app. You can follow the show on Instagram and still talking black. Until next time, keep talking

Transcribed by https://otter.ai